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Offline Tripleboo

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Slip on's and fuelling
« on: October 18, 2018, 08:25:49 PM »
Hi there! I am a new owner of a 765R.
I am confused...I have always beleaved that as long as you have the OEM air filter and keep the cat it doesn't matter what you have for slip on. No need for remap or anything.
But the more I read on these forums the more confused I get. Some one claims that it runs poorly in the low rew range after fitting this or that end can. From experience I now that there can be surging on static low revs when the O2 sensor and ECU is trying to run as lean as possible. But to loose some bhp, that some claims, I did not think that would be the case. Can some one with true knowledge and experience enlighten me? Perhaps some one who have Dynoed the bike with the stock exhaust and again with a slip on and actually can confirm the loss. From reading I picked up that there is no Arrow map. That seems to confirm my theory. The back pressure from the cat itself is quite enough, no difference of what goes on behind...
If you de cat and put in a more open filter, then it must run too lean. But if you don't...
Cheers
M
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Offline Tomspurs

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 08:50:32 PM »
Contact "T3 racing" and they may be able to answer your questions... :211:
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Offline Ali-bear

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 09:20:31 AM »
Hello and  :401:
People say a lot about exhausts and tuning. But take a look at the difference in dyno graphs between the 765R and the RS. From what I have read the RS has a different camshaft (the inlet one I think) to make this difference. Changing the exhaust end can could make a difference but only a very small one, and if you gain somewhere in the rev range you are likely to lose out somewhere else.
Also these dyno curves we all get so obsessed about are obtained at full load and full throttle. Will anyone really notice a difference at low revs and fractional throttle?
For me its only worth changing the exhaust end can on these modern bikes for the looks and the sound.

Offline Tripleboo

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 09:42:12 AM »
*Originally Posted by Ali-bear [+]
Hello and  :401:
People say a lot about exhausts and tuning. But take a look at the difference in dyno graphs between the 765R and the RS. From what I have read the RS has a different camshaft (the inlet one I think) to make this difference. Changing the exhaust end can could make a difference but only a very small one, and if you gain somewhere in the rev range you are likely to lose out somewhere else.
Also these dyno curves we all get so obsessed about are obtained at full load and full throttle. Will anyone really notice a difference at low revs and fractional throttle?
For me its only worth changing the exhaust end can on these modern bikes for the looks and the sound.
Pretty much my point. I dont think I will gain something (I dont care really), but I am not prepared to loose some hp or torque just because I bought "the wrong" end can. I want something that is lighter then stock and better looking and I dont want to spend a fortune.
Cheers!
M
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Offline hotmetal

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 09:48:35 AM »
I don't have the technical knowledge to fully answer the question. But essentially it boils down to looks and sound for most people. If the end goal is to go 1% faster, you could spend the money on training and get better value. On my old carburetted Fazer Thou with EXUP valve it did make a difference when I put a Mivv GP Shorty on. Even with baffle in, it looked and sounded much better, and saved a ton of weight (Not that I could feel the difference when riding though). What it definitely did do though was affect how much engine braking there was. With the OE Yamaha "Iraqi super gun" massive pipe it was so quiet, pedestrians used to walk out in front of me. Shutting off the throttle barely had an effect, the bike slowed very smoothly. With the Mivv it crackled and popped, with much more engine braking,  and felt less smooth but more responsive overall. I preferred it with the Mivv. I've done the same on my Street with a pair of LV Evos, with similar results. Great sound, big weight loss (and being underseat that's a good thing in theory but I'd be kidding myself if I said I could benefit from an improved handling). Top end? Where can you max out even a 675 these days apart from on track?

TL;DR yes I do believe aftermarket exhausts can have a slight negative effect on power delivery and fuelling. But it might not matter as long as the ECU can compensate and no damage is done due to lean spots.

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Offline VBui

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 10:30:53 AM »
Shouldnt make an appreciable difference with EFI and lambda sensors. Engine management systems compensate for minor changes, wear and tear of components, changes in operating conditions and as the air filter gets more and more blocked through its service life.

Changing exhausts only really affect bikes if you remove the cat or significantly change the pipe length or if you have an old fashioned carburetted bike.

Guys that say the bike behaviour changes for the worse after an end can are usually experiencing a negative placebo or think its running poorly because they hear burbling and fluttering at low RPM throttle transitions and positions. In fact the bike does the same with a standard end can but because its highly baffled and there is a resonator within the exhaust box you often dont hear it.

Offline Tripleboo

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 02:57:57 PM »
*Originally Posted by VBui [+]
Shouldnt make an appreciable difference with EFI and lambda sensors. Engine management systems compensate for minor changes, wear and tear of components, changes in operating conditions and as the air filter gets more and more blocked through its service life.

Changing exhausts only really affect bikes if you remove the cat or significantly change the pipe length or if you have an old fashioned carburetted bike.

Guys that say the bike behaviour changes for the worse after an end can are usually experiencing a negative placebo or think its running poorly because they hear burbling and fluttering at low RPM throttle transitions and positions. In fact the bike does the same with a standard end can but because its highly baffled and there is a resonator within the exhaust box you often dont hear it.

You are confirming my initial thoughts. So if I buy a cheap ass SP end can or a expensive Acrapovic or a sanctified Arrow pipe it wouldn't make any difference. As long as I keep the rest of the fuelling affected parts stock e.g.air Filter, headers and cat.

Cheers!
M
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Offline tim.8061

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 05:09:47 PM »
*Originally Posted by VBui [+]

Changing exhausts only really affect bikes if you remove the cat or significantly change the pipe length or if you have an old fashioned carburetted bike.


Certainly makes a big difference for the better if you remove the cat, O2 sensor and baffle then remap - definitely faster and smoother. Possibly a bit louder as well.

Offline VBui

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »
*Originally Posted by tim.8061 [+]
Certainly makes a big difference for the better if you remove the cat, O2 sensor and baffle then remap - definitely faster and smoother. Possibly a bit louder as well.
Definitely! However Ive always wondered, with Power Commanders and remaps is the bike still able to adapt to operating condition changes ie altitude, temperature, humidity? As there will always be wear and tear of engine components and blockage of air filters? If its a feedback closed loop map I imagine yes, but are Power Commander maps closed loop or open loop? :027:

Offline doggy

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Re: Slip on's and fuelling
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 09:29:26 PM »
Just been reading about the 12 minute triumph self tune . Fit a can and give that a go .

 


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